Featured Is Salvation based on Works or Faith or both?

[AgnosticBoy]

One of my favorite topics to debate as a non-believer... ; /


What is salvation based on? Is it based on works, faith, or both? One member gave an insightful answer here:

Good works are the fruit of our salvation, not the root of our salvation.

Am I right in saying that salvation then is ultimately based on faith? But can you really have faith without works? I'm thinking both go together or maybe I'm overthinking it.

 

[Scooter]

Salvation is by faith in Christ alone. Nothing else is required to be saved:
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The works that we as believers do are evidence that Christ dwells in us. Jesus describes this fact Himself:
Matthew 7:17-20 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

James said our works are a testimony that we are saved: James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

So, let's look at Matthew 25:31-46 where someone may take Jesus' words as works are required for salvation. The following is from the website https://carm.org/bible-difficulties/does-matthew-2531-46-teach-salvation-by-works/

Examining the text​

The key to understanding Matthew 25:31-46 is found in verse 32 where it speaks of the separation between the sheep and the goats. The sheep are believers. The goats are not believers. We know from Scripture that people don’t become believers by doing good works. They do good works because they are believers. After all, behavior is the result of belief, not the other way around. Similarly, people do not become saved by their good works as is clearly taught in such verses as Romans 3:28; 4:5; Titus 3:5, etc.) Furthermore, we know that Jesus’ words cannot contradict anything taught elsewhere in Scripture. So, then what are we to conclude? It is simple. True faith expresses itself in deeds of righteousness. That is what sheep do, not what goats do. The righteous are rewarded in the kingdom for their good works, but their good works do not get them into the kingdom. But, to maintain that Matt. 25:31-46 teaches salvation by works is to go against the rest of Scripture clearly speaks to the contrary: Romans 3:28; 4:1-5; 5:1; 11:6; Gal. 2:16, 21; 3:8, 24; Phil. 3:9; Titus 3:5.

• Rom. 3:28, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”
• Rom. 4:1-5, “What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.”
• Rom. 5:1, “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
• Rom. 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”
• Gal. 2:16, “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
• Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
• Gal. 3:8, “And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations shall be blessed in you.”
• Gal. 3:24, “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.”
• Phil. 3:9, “and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.”
• Titus 3:5, “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.”

 

[Scooter]

Here is another interesting view about the Matthew 25:31-46 passage from the website: https://evidenceunseen.com/new-test...is-passage-teach-salvation-through-good-works

First, this cannot refer to earning salvation through good works. After all, both the sheep and the goats are surprised by Jesus’ judgment. If “good sheep” were trying to earn salvation, they wouldn’t be surprised when they stood in judgment. Instead, they would be relishing in the good works that they accomplished. Carson writes, “The surprise of the righteous makes it impossible to think that works of righteousness win salvation… The sheep did not show love to gain an eschatological reward nor did the goats fail to show it to flout eschatological retribution.”

I believe the evidence is overwhelming that salvation is by faith alone. Therefore, good works are the fruit of our salvation, not the root of our salvation.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

I believe the evidence is overwhelming that salvation is by faith alone. Therefore, good works are the fruit of our salvation, not the root of our salvation.

Agreed. That analogy in Matthew 7 regarding the tree and its fruit really helps to understand this topic. Thanks for posting.

I'll go back and look through your other discussion with Lemur and see what he brought up on the topic.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Salvation by faith side:

Good works are the fruit of our salvation, not the root of our salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

If works were the basis for salvation, then the thief on the cross who asked Jesus to remember him, is in Hell today and Jesus is a liar. The thief was not allowed to get baptized, take the Lord's supper, feed the hungry or cloth the naked. Yet, because of his faith in Christ on the cross, Jesus saved him. So do not kid yourself into believing you can go to Heaven by doing any kind of good deed.

Salvation by works side:

For other persons reading along,

in Matthew chapter 25, verses 31-46, Jesus is talking and clearly says that if you help “one of the least of these,” you will go to heaven. In fact, you will “ . . inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world“ (verse 34).

I actually get why some Christians would want salvation by works because it just seems the system can be abused if someone goes on sinning and then just claim to have faith. But then, I also get why salvation by faith is more inviting because it eliminates pride and allows anyone from any background and status to be able to enter the faith. So the best option is a combination of the two which is what Scooter's position is.

@Multicolored Lemur brings up Matthew 25, but I think the passage about the thief on the cross being in Paradise negates the point about Matthew 25. In my view, we could also say that someone with faith would want to give or help "one of the least of these" if they were confronted with that situation. Isn't that kinda what Christmas is supposed to be part of.. giving?...

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

@Scooter

From the source you cite —

“After all, both the sheep and the goats are surprised by Jesus’ judgment. If “good sheep” were trying to earn salvation, they wouldn’t be surprised when they stood in judgment.”

The disciples were surprised at lot of things Jesus said.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

Theory — If we just look at the words of Jesus in the 4 Gospels, we’re going to have a different view of salvation than the letters of Paul.

There’s Matthew chapter 25 and “the least of these.”

And the famous John 3:16. It doesn’t say repent and ask for forgiveness. It doesn’t say invite Jesus into your heart. It just says believe in Jesus.

It’s quite a bit more minimal than what evangelical churches typically teach and preach.

 

[Scooter]

Theory — If we just look at the words of Jesus in the 4 Gospels, we’re going to have a different view of salvation than the letters of Paul.

This is a false statement. The writings of Paul aligned perfectly with what Jesus taught.

There’s Matthew chapter 25 and “the least of these.”

Evidence from the Bible proves the Matthew 25 verses do not teach salvation by works despite your constant claim it does.

And the famous John 3:16. It doesn’t say repent and ask for forgiveness. It doesn’t say invite Jesus into your heart. It just says believe in Jesus.

Correct, this verse does not refer to repentance but this verse spoken by Jesus does: Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 1 John 1:9 does teach us to confess our sins so we can be forgiven: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You are free to believe a person can be saved by works, but that does not mean you’re right. Your beliefs cannot be supported by scripture. Your misunderstanding of scripture does not change Biblical doctrine.

 

[Multicolored Lemur]

@Multicolored Lemur brings up Matthew 25, but I think the passage about the thief on the cross being in Paradise negates the point about Matthew 25.

I think here in section 1, we’ve got to be thinking of verses [and paragraphs and sections] dovetailing together.

 

[Scooter]

I think here in section 1, we’ve got to be thinking of verses [and paragraphs and sections] dovetailing together.

This is what I have been saying. Instead of pulling verses out of context to create a doctrine, the whole Bible must be examined for cohesiveness of doctrines. I am glad you finally realize this.