Is it biblical to pray to dead people?

[AgnosticBoy]

One practice I see in the Catholic community are Catholics praying to saints, and in many cases, the saints are already deceased. Some pray to Mary (Jesus's mother) and of course she is long gone. Is this practice biblical? I'll share one perspective from an article I found online from here...https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/praying-to-dead-folks

James White attempts to make that discussion a moot point when he says there shouldn’t be any of this praying to dead folks to begin with:

The Bible strongly condemns communication with the dead. It does not matter if those who died were good or bad, saintly or evil, there is to be no communication between the living and the dead. The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone.

Biblical texts like Deut. 18:10-11 and Isaiah 19:3—each of which condemns necromancy—are employed to say “communication with the dead” is condemned absolutely.

3 responses were posted in same article...

Response 1...

Actually, what is being condemned in these texts from Deuteronomy and Isaiah is conjuring up the dead through wizards and mediums, not praying to saints. The Church has always condemned this. Mediums attempt to conjure up spirits and manipulate the spiritual realm at will. This is categorically different from Christians asking for the intercession of their brothers and sisters in Christ. We do not “conjure up” or manipulate anything or anyone. True prayer—whether to God or the angels and saints—changes the pray-er, not the pray-ee.

Response 2....

If one says recklessly as Mr. White said, “… there is to be no communication between the living and the dead,” where does this leave Jesus? He is clearly guilty according to Luke 9:29-31:

And as [Jesus] was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.

According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was dead. And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the redemption. Obviously, Jesus does not agree with Mr. White.

Response 3...

The Book of Revelation gives us an even better description of this communication between heaven and earth:

The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints … the elders fell down and worshipped (5:8-14).

These “elders” are offering the prayers of the faithful symbolized by incense filtering upward from the earth to heaven. And because they are seen receiving these prayers, we can reasonably conclude they were both directed to these saints in heaven and that they were initiated by the faithful living on earth. We also see this same phenomenon being performed by the angels in Revelation 8:3-4:

And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

The bottom line is this: Both the faithful on earth and our brothers and sisters in heaven (and let’s not forget our “cousins,” the angels) are all acting just as Catholics would expect. Believers on earth are initiating prayers which the saints and angels in heaven are receiving. Is this the necromancy condemned in Deuteronomy and Isaiah? Absolutely not! This is New Testament Christianity.

For Discussion:
1. Is it okay for Christians to pray to any dead person?
2. Do you agree with the responses from the above article?

 

[AgnosticBoy]

1. Is it okay for Christians to pray to any dead person?

I think we first need to show that the Bible teaches against talking to the dead.

Dueteronomy 18:10-12 seems clear enough...
10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable.

The above article responds to this passage with this:

Actually, what is being condemned in these texts from Deuteronomy and Isaiah is conjuring up the dead through wizards and mediums, not praying to saints. The Church has always condemned this. Mediums attempt to conjure up spirits and manipulate the spiritual realm at will. This is categorically different from Christians asking for the intercession of their brothers and sisters in Christ. We do not “conjure up” or manipulate anything or anyone. True prayer—whether to God or the angels and saints—changes the pray-er, not the pray-ee.

This response makes a distinction between "conjuring" and "praying". I suppose the reason that distinction is made is because mediums and spiritists usually have to conjure up the dead, whereas Catholics believe the dead saints are alive spiritually (so no soul sleep?) during the New Testament era and beyond (example: Revelation 5:8 talks about saints in Heaven and their prayers).

That point regarding "conjuring" takes care of the "medium" and "spiritists" part in Deut. 18:11, but what about "or who consults the dead". That last phrase expands it to anyone who "consults" the dead. The Hebrew word for "consult" is "šā'al", and here's its meaning:
"to ask, enquire, borrow, beg". So based on this definition, the issue is not just about not "conjuring" up the dead, but also includes other forms of communication with the dead. So why would this article only focus on "conjuring" and not also include all of the other communication forms that Deut. 18:11 prohibits?

Later on, I'll move on to the other responses in the article.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Response 3...

The Book of Revelation gives us an even better description of this communication between heaven and earth:

The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints … the elders fell down and worshipped (5:8-14).

These “elders” are offering the prayers of the faithful symbolized by incense filtering upward from the earth to heaven. And because they are seen receiving these prayers, we can reasonably conclude they were both directed to these saints in heaven and that they were initiated by the faithful living on earth. We also see this same phenomenon being performed by the angels in Revelation 8:3-4:

And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

The bottom line is this: Both the faithful on earth and our brothers and sisters in heaven (and let’s not forget our “cousins,” the angels) are all acting just as Catholics would expect. Believers on earth are initiating prayers which the saints and angels in heaven are receiving. Is this the necromancy condemned in Deuteronomy and Isaiah? Absolutely not! This is New Testament Christianity.

The article which I quoted in post #1, gives 2 passages in the Book of Revelation to support the point that Christians can pray to dead saints.

So far, I'm not convinced with Revelation 5:8 and the article's explanation for why we can pray to the dead.

One reason I'm not convinced is because the article leaves out the part of Revelations 5:8 that talks about "creatures" being with the elders.

8 When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Who are these creatures? If they are dealing with prayers just as the elders are, then does that mean Christians can pray to these creatures as well? I bring this up because this takes away from the uniqueness of the "elders" (the believers that have died physically?) and it would seem odd to be praying to some unidentified creatures.

Second reason I'm not convinced is because the support for praying to the dead in Rev. 5:8 is not as clear cut as the article says. At best, it shows "creatures" and elders collecting prayers and offering them to God. No where does it say that these elders, let alone "creatures" are praying to God on our behalf, nor does it say that Christians have to pray or communicate to them in any way. So there's a lot of speculation on the part of the author. Furthermore, there are other passages that would go against having to pray to anyone else:

1 Timothy 2:5 effectively removes any middlemen and the middle "creatures"...

5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and mankind, the Man Christ Jesus,

 

[Scooter]

When the disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray, He gave the model sermon which begins "Our Father which art in Heaven..." Jesus does not suggest we pray to anyone other than the Father. Jesus does not say we should pray to any particular "saint" for specific requests. Believers should only pray to God.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

When the disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray, He gave the model sermon which begins "Our Father which art in Heaven..." Jesus does not suggest we pray to anyone other than the Father. Jesus does not say we should pray to any particular "saint" for specific requests. Believers should only pray to God.

I question if many Catholics even mention God or Jesus in their prayers. There are just too many relics in Catholicism in my view and those can easily turn into idols, imo.